SUCCESS IS IN THE MIND PODCAST: Listen to Felix Favor Parker – Fairfax and Favor Interview

Felix Favor Parker_SIITM Wall Post

From bouncy castles to gun slips followed by a trip to Spain to start a shoe business which ultimately led to a court settlement… Starting a business isn’t as easy as it may seem, it certainly wasn’t for the Fairfax and Favor boys.

Founder and Entrepreneur Oliver Bruce speaks with owner operator entrepreneurs, innovators and leaders about their failures, barriers, mistakes, passion and persistence to achieve their vision

Felix talks to Oliver about how his assumption in the early days nearly cost him and his business partner their business.

What was the turning point for Fairfax and Favour, when did their breakthrough design moment occur and what quintessentially British designed products have they on the horizon?

You can listen to the latest podcast with Felix Favor Parker Co-founder of Fairfax and Favor here via your preferred provider either Apple or Spotify

 

Apple – E7:Success Is In The Mind: Felix Favor Parker – Fairfax and Favor Interview

Spotify – E7: Success Is In The Mind: Felix Favor Parker – Fairfax and Favor Interview

Full transcript for this episode of the podcast can be found below.

Felix Favor-Parker :

“Dear Blahdiblah. I’d like to educate you on a point of law”. We were like “this is our guy”, and eventually, after a bit of back and forthing, but we agreed to dispose of all the shoes. So we have to send 400 pairs of shoes.

Oliver Bruce:

Success Is In The Mind is proud to have partnered with, and be supported by, the Great British Entrepreneur Awards and Community, a programme that recognises, celebrates, supports, encourages and champions entrepreneurs in Great Britain. Hello, and welcome to another episode of Success Is In The Mind with me, Oliver, Bruce. If you’re new to the show, we’ll be discussing with current owner entrepreneurs, their failures, mistakes, passion, and continued persistence in the face of business adversity. Not all entrepreneurs have completed their vision just yet. Some are just starting out. I want to give you a sense of business reality in a world full of idealism. What does it take to become successful, to grow a brand, or to start a business? Join me to find out from those that are currently doing just that. So before we get into this interview, you’re going to have to excuse the technology in the background that you’ll hear buzzing and vibrating. Felix very much runs his business from the forefront and is going on holiday the day after this podcast was recorded, so needed to stay online. That said the interview is a good one. Today I’m joined by one of the founders of the quintessentially British luxury footwear brand Fairfax and Favor. Fairfax and Favor, a staple of the “what was worn” column during Cheltenham race week, hasn’t always been about shoes, handbags and designer caps. In fact, the business was originally set up to and I quote, “provide the most epic bouncy castle experience ever envisaged”, which, rather ironically, is a business where one’s shoes are normally supposed to be taken off before usage. Maybe that’s what got Felix and Marcus thinking. Let’s find out Felix, welcome to the show.

Felix Favor-Parker:

Thank you very much Oli. Pleasure to be here.

Oliver Bruce:

Thank you so much. Bouncy castles, why?

Felix Favor-Parker:

Bouncy castles was a rogue one. There’s a competition down in Norfolk called Hunstanton Tennis Week, and when you’re 16, if you like underage drinking it’s the place to go. When we were down there everyone dragged along their younger brothers and sisters, and they’ve got nothing to do. I mean, drinking starts at 18, but 16 was sort of their cutoff. So there was a massive group of like 10 year olds and stuff, and we just thought if we’ve got a bouncy castle, we could probably make a bit of money off it. Looked into it, did our first probably business proposal project and realised that it wasn’t a couple of hundred quid. It was 10 grand. So didn’t really go anywhere from there.

Oliver Bruce:

No, I can imagine that. So you went from bouncy castles, you went from there to gun slips. Why did you do that transition? Because that’s not a logical transition from you know, business 1 to business 2.

Felix Favor-Parker:

I was very fortunate. I have a Spanish godfather who is an ex business partner of my dad and so he is from Spain, loves shooting and had a load of contacts in the leather industry, and he started making gun slips, and he was keen for us to sell it in the UK. So we started working off commission. Eventually we decided that it didn’t really work having a boss for me and Marcus, so we went our separate ways, carried on the gun slips and quickly found out that gun slips is a very niche market. Once you’ve bought one, if it isn’t still here in a hundred years then we’ve done a bad job so not many opportunities for repeat business.

Oliver Bruce:

You went from gun slips obviously out to Spain, which is where your godfather lives, and I’m assuming that’s why you chose Alicante as the place to kind of source the factory which now obviously produces your shoes. Tell me about that journey.

Felix Favor-Parker:

So originally we were making the gun slips in Toledo. We quickly realised that gun slips were a lovely thing to produce, but they’re not the be all and end all and so slowly started getting shoes, which you’re right was Alicante, Elche. And from there Marcus and I decided after a pretty intense meeting with my godfather, that we’re going to go our separate ways. And we managed to muster up between us about four and a half grand, everything we had each, and flew to Spain, flew to Alicante, went to try and find this factory, realised that my pigeon Spanish was actually not very good, despite spending six weeks in Madrid, going to a Spanish school, and doing GCSE and A Level Spanish, my Spanish was truly awful and was not good enough to get us into factory negotiations. Fortunately, when we were in Elche by complete luck, we ended up at a bus stop, standing opposite a university. And we were like, this is ideal. So we went in there, looking for a student who for 50 euros would come and translate for us for the day. Went and asked a receptionist if she knew anyone who’d be interested. And she said she would do it. And we’re like, well fantastic. So Jessica was her name, and she then came with us. The next day the factory sent free cars to come pick us up, took us up into the mountains. It was a lot further away than we thought, we didn’t have enough money for a hire car or anything so glad they picked us up. We go in there, we pick some shoes, very much, we’re not experts of shoe design, we just went into their sample room. We bought some ones which look very similar to Gucci, we’re like that’s fantastic we’ll have those. We were definitely not experts in copyright, we’ll come to that later on. But from that, they said, “yeah, that’s fine. We’ll do it. But we want a hundred percent of the money up front”, which is unheard of. We’ve worked with many factories now, and the idea of giving a new factory a hundred percent of the money is just absurd. Anyway, we were naive and we gave them all the money.

Oliver Bruce:

How much was it? What was the value?

Felix Favor-Parker:

I think it was around £10k.

Oliver Bruce:

So you’d saved up four and a half thousand pounds by working in pubs and selling fireplaces to go out there and spend 10 grand which you didn’t have?

Felix Favor-Parker:

No so we had saved all that, but that was everything. That was a full wipe, we bought as many shoes as we could leaving enough money to get back home, which we blew on the first night actually, so we didn’t have much left. We bought 430 pairs of shoes, and they said they would arrive in three or four months which is a long time to give someone you’ve never met before all your money. Anyway, four and a half months come back. Marcus is away in Thailand and the shoes arrive. And I was like, well, this is great. Where are we going to put it? And we were running our offices from Marcus’ house. And he has this attic at the top of his house, a big empty abandoned attic and it’s up three flights of stairs and my first real introduction to shoes and what sort of graft and grind that was going to come ahead was carrying not 430 pairs up, but 390 pairs up three flights of stairs.

Oliver Bruce:

What do you place now in terms of order volumes?

Felix Favor-Parker:

80,000 units a year now. Something like that.

Oliver Bruce:

Brilliant. So you’ve obviously now diversified from, I suppose, shoes, from loafers. You had this legal case. Talk to me about when the Italian firm sued you for essentially just copying their shoe.

Felix Favor-Parker:

Well, I think it’s one step further back than that, because we bought those shoes off the shelf from the Spanish factory.

Oliver Bruce:

So you just rebranded them?

Felix Favor-Parker:

Yeah we just put our logos in them. Obviously everyone knows Gucci shoes and the idea that we could sell them, wouldn’t have occurred to us, I think, unless we’d seen them in the showroom, so we were like, this is fantastic. And naturally people loved the bargain Gucci shoes, which came back to bite us in a big way.

Oliver Bruce:

I can imagine. How much did it cost you? Did you have to pay the full fine?

Felix Favor-Parker:

They wanted a hundred grand from us. They wanted a full page apology in one of the national newspapers bringing them back another £50k, I imagine. We had to sign everything saying that we will never go anywhere near them, so like the idea of doing anything with a buckle on terrifies us now, in case it resembles Gucci. The lawyer bit of this is my favourite part. We received this email, a 92 page document on Friday, and I was like, Marcus, we’ve got a problem. Everything that’s going through your head about Gucci, you know, a massive company coming after us, going after our dream too. So eventually we got hold of a local lawyer, Mark. And Mark offered to pay them something like 40 quid a pair, and of course the price was around 40 quid anyway. So obviously totally unacceptable to us, bankrupt us.

Oliver Bruce:

I can imagine.

Felix Favor-Parker:

Very, very fortunate. One of my dad’s friends was down for the weekend. I was talking to him and he happens to be a QC lawyer. And he’s like, I will send one email, but there’s no way you can afford my time, but I’ll send them one email. So you’ve got it coming from like someone who looks like they can put up a fight and hopefully not expose how empty our bank account was. And he sent an email and one of his opening points to the guy over at Mishcon was “Dear Blahdiblah. I’d like to educate you on a point of law”. We were like “this is our guy”, and eventually, after a bit of back and forthing, but we agreed to dispose of all the shoes. So we have to send 400 pairs of shoes, which was probably 40% of our stock holding at the time. It was really painful. So we decided like, we cut them with scissors in dodgy places and we mixed pairs.

Oliver Bruce:

That’s what made me laugh, I still like the fact that you mixed the pairs, they weren’t the same sizes in any of the box. They must have- Did you hear from them again?

Felix Favor-Parker:

I followed it up a few times. Because I still email them. And if anyone from Gucci listens to this, I’d love to know how you see so many other companies selling snaffle bit loafers. You see them everywhere. And is there a rule for some or who does the rule apply to? And I’ve emailed them a few times.

Oliver Bruce:

Because Russell & Bromley do those types of loafers as well, don’t they?

Felix Favor-Parker:

100%. Loads of other companies do. And I’ve emailed them, asking them if it’s okay for them, I tend to bring our shoes back so they can sell it. And I sent back from the letters from the lawyers saying, I would not touch it if I were you.

Oliver Bruce:

You’ll just open up a can of worms, although quite good fun. I remember the time when I was at university and I went to another university freshers and I gatecrashed it. And it’s similar to this story in as much as they banned me for doing absolutely nothing wrong. And I look back now and anyway, I’m going to go meet the old principal of this university in a few weeks time, little does he know. And I’m tempted to say to him, do you remember banning me from that university? We’re now actually working together. And I do wonder what he’d say, but I do think sometimes it’s better just to keep quiet.

Felix Favor-Parker:

We learnt out lesson with that. And it’s actually, it was one of the best lessons we’ve learned because from there we then really focused on integrity of our brand and protecting our products and paying attention to trademark. Trying to steer clear of further disputes. So obviously everyone looks everywhere for design inspiration, but do not copy.

Oliver Bruce:

You had a sort of breakthrough moment when, I suppose, was it you and Marcus that came up with the Regina boot because that really, I suppose, propelled you into, I suppose what Fairfax is now. Because all the girls, my girlfriend constantly goes on about it, have Regina boots. I’ve not met a single one that doesn’t. Talk to me about who came up with that idea?

Felix Favor-Parker:

Regina boot is based on the Spanish riding boot, which is as common as a broker from Northampton. We still have the original boot we started with, it was clumpy. It was short, thick sole, very ugly. It’s like calling a penny loafer a penny loafer, there’s different types. So what we did is we narrowed it. We made it very tight fitting. So you’ve got the nice silhouette which is hopefully fairly iconic to us. The huge problem with going for narrowing the boots is obviously it affects the calf. And so many people have different calf widths. So we developed a way of putting elastic into the back of the boot, which was hidden and discreet, which gives it an extra five centimetres. And we got all this feedback from Marcus and I just being out on the show circuit and seeing them not fit. And when you see a problem, every single day up close, your mind is just thinking, “how do we fix this? How do we fix it? If only we had this.” And we’re like, “how do we get elastic in that? It’s got to have some elastic in there”. And we put elastic in. We have stockists, they all hated the idea. They were like “never going to stock it.” We’re like, well, we’re going to do it. Put the elastic in and suddenly our fit, I reckon we went from fitting 60% of the people to being able to fit about 70, 80.

Oliver Bruce:

Wow.

Felix Favor-Parker:

And the flat Regina, which is what we call it. If you see a flat Spanish riding boot, it’s always been flat, and we were like, why don’t we put a heel on it? And so we put a heell on it. We’ve already talked about the narrowing bit. And finally we were like, “wouldn’t it be cool if those tassels could change?” So we developed a system and we were the first people to invent, which I don’t know if it’s a term but we definitely use it everyday now, is the interchangeable tassel. I think that-

Oliver Bruce:

Just be careful with that because they might be copyrighted, Felix [laughs].

Felix Favor-Parker:

[laughs]

Oliver Bruce :

No, it’s genius though. The interchangeable tassel, because I constantly see it pop up; multiple different colours. And you did a campaign for breast cancer awareness week, I believe, whereby was it you raised nearly a hundred thousand pounds by releasing these pink tassels?

Felix Favor-Parker:

Without a doubt. The thing we’re most proud of is what we’ve done. We’ve raised over a hundred grand for breast cancer care over the years. But this April when everyone went into lockdown, we put 10% of online sales to the NHS charities together, and we were like we’ll bring a tassel and limited edition caps where we gave all the profits to the NHS charities together.

Oliver Bruce:

Genius.

Felix Favor-Parker:

And so far, we’re still selling them, but the donation we’ve already given, we’ll give more when we sell the rest of the tassels, it’s 105,000 pounds.

Oliver Bruce:

That’s fantastic. That’s incredible. And when does that campaign stop?

Felix Favor-Parker:

When we run out of tassels and hopefully there’s no second wave.

Oliver Bruce:

No well quite.

Felix Favor-Parker:

I saw on the JustGiving page, we are the ninth highest fundraiser for the NHS charities together for COVID behind number one, being the legend captain Sir Tom.

Oliver Bruce:

Yeah, exactly. He’s an absolute trooper. Now that is an incredible feat. And I suppose it’s that kind of entrepreneurial pivoting, I suppose which has done you guys so well, but going back to the event scene when you first started, because you guys, similarly to me started in 2013, and we’ve both been to the game fair on many, many occasions. And was that kind of, I suppose the key to market? Going to these events and seeing people and selling face to face because now so much of it’s done online, but you still maintain that kind of point of sale face-to-face interaction.

Felix Favor-Parker:

Well it was two things going to shows, is people going to the shows generally are in a buying mood, especially somewhere like the game fair or they are going to buy something there, so it’s not like you see an advert on Google or something and you might buy it. Like people are in the shopping frame of mind. And both Marcus and I were 21, everyone was at uni, so we were stuck in Norfolk, both living at home. So we were like, let’s get out on the show circuit. And we ended up doing quite well, sales, partying way too hard, working definitely in conditions which would be unadvisable for people.

Oliver Bruce:

You were banned, I can’t remember if it was 2015 or 2016, but you know, Dubarry were known for having massive marquee parties. You guys had an incredible marquee party and you’re no longer allowed to. Was that just, you know, was that the turning point where you thought actually we need to be more professional or do you still have a lot of fun with what you guys do?

Felix Favor-Parker:

We have a lot of fun. I think we just had a product strategy day yesterday. And the key thing that hasn’t changed since the beginning is we have to have fun with what we’re doing. Fun is key for us.

Oliver Bruce:

So you know, at what point obviously did you guys start to actually turn a profit, start to make money because you invested your 10,000 and you only got some of the shoes that you ordered. You then had a lawsuit. You must’ve been losing money, hand over fist. When did you guys start to take a salary?

Felix Favor-Parker:

We started taking salary probably year two, but not much like 50 quid a week. Marcus and I also have been pretty good at going to get sales independently. I don’t know, I sold to my aunt or whoever who came around to my house. We always made a deal that we would split 10% of the sale that each of us do personally. So, some people win some weeks Marcus might win one week I might win the other, but we’d all benefit from having a bit of extra cash.

Oliver Bruce:

Because you guys have, obviously, you pivoted massively into B2. Sorry, into e-commerce that was a major point because you tried to obviously sell to wholesale, when you first started, you sold 80/90 quid’s worth of shoe, of boots. But now obviously you’re online. That is revolutionary because you can sell anywhere in the world to anybody. Was that a changing point?

Felix Favor-Parker:

Online has always been our key focus since the beginning. Well, shows were probably the fastest growth channel, because to get established online without doing something like the shows or getting to do lots of popups, you need large amounts of cash to advertise, which we didn’t have. So we’ve grown over the seven years organically. We’ve turned a profit every year. And the transition to online was always going this way, but COVID is a hundred percent knocked it forwards by I reckon about five years and that’s where our entire focus is. So when we do a product, when we’re deciding on a strategy, like free gift with purchase or whatever, it always has to point back to, does it benefit online?

Oliver Bruce:

And I suppose over COVID you guys have seen, as you said, a massive increase, have you seen that continue or do you think that’s going to plateau?

Felix Favor-Parker:

No, I think it’s going to continue. And the only other thing which we’ve noticed is because people get so excited about going to Burghley or the game fair, they delay their purchase they are going to make because they want to go to Burghley and they want to buy something at the stand. Because there’s been no Burghley people are like well I’ll get it now. And I might get the handbag because I don’t have to carry it. The older people who were sort of adverse to online at the beginning of this, they now, it’s now their beginning point, normally Amazon.

Oliver Bruce:

Really? Do you guys sell on Amazon or not?

Felix Favor-Parker:

We’re not on Amazon at the moment, in the UK, but we’re looking at going on Amazon in Europe.

Oliver Bruce:

Okay. That makes sense. I mean, that’s a massive, massive market for you guys. And I suppose for every shoe you sell, every person that follows you on social media, quite a nice thing that you guys do. I don’t know if you still do do it, but you allow your fans to kind of have an input into what the shoe, the handbag, the name of the product is going to be. Have you got any products in the pipeline that you’re looking to launch?

Felix Favor-Parker:

Yeah. I don’t know when this is going live, but a product, which we’re really, really excited to lauch is we’re doing these incredible down-filled puffer jackets and it’s a completely new product category for us, but a lot of time and effort has gone into them and they look incredible. Very, very fair, good price. So we’re crossing our fingers, but think they should be quite popular.

Oliver Bruce:

Yeah that sounds awesome. And recently youll have probably read in the news that, you know, Ben from Gymshark has obviously valued his business at over a billion quid. Jade Holland Cooper is obviously going from strength to strength. You guys are now going into sort of puffer jackets to a certain extent. Are you guys going into more of a clothing world because of the way that the market and the industry seems to be going from a valuation and and sort of growth point of view?

Felix Favor-Parker:

Two things. Obviously we do a photoshoot. So we have to use a lot of other people’s clothes for that. Imagine you’re taking a pair of picture of a lady in some driving shoes. That’s about 1/10th of the size of the picture. And so everyone’s looking at the clothes. So we’ve always wanted to work on a way of getting more products, higher up. Sunglasses being the obvious one. But I think it’s too far for us to go into sunglasses. And so that’s why we went into handbags because people, they were buying their bootd because it matched their handbag. Or they were going to buy a handbag because it matched their boots. We were like, we should do handbags. And then we’ve always given our show team puffer jackets, and they were branded Fairfax and Favor on the back. And one of the highest search terms in our website is for the puffer jackets, which you can’t buy, we were like, we should do them.

Oliver Bruce:

I mean, they would look great and they do look great when you guys are on site. And when do they actually launch?

Felix Favor-Parker:

November.

Oliver Bruce:

Going back to our first podcast, which we released with Harry Hugo, from the Goat Agency, you guys have grown based on the influencer world to a certain extent with the likes of people from Made in Chelsea and all these sort of reality programmes wearing your clothes. Is that a key marketing strategy for you guys?

Felix Favor-Parker:

It’s part of it, the biggest and the most successful part of our marketing strategy has been to make it more customer focused. So we try to use customer generated images. So people go out on the weekend, have a great time, tag us in their pictures. We use real pictures of people, hopefully they’re good pictures and people who submit their entries get put into customer of the month. So the one with the most votes wins 500 quid a month. So people actually put a bit of time and thought into getting the images, but I don’t know if you’ve seen our Fairfax and Favor club members group on Facebook?

Oliver Bruce:

Yeah you put me in it. Yeah, lots of posts. Lots of photos.

Felix Favor-Parker:

Lots of photos. So that’s probably been one of the best things we’ve done. So we’ve got, I don’t know, a hundred thousand followers on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. We wanted to make more core like best customers, not necessarily in terms of how much they’re spending in terms of how much they like the brand, Friend group, and anyone listening, particularly if you’re a lady, I would recommend checking it out.

Oliver Bruce:

I mean, for somebody starting a business, someone starting a business and they’re getting into manufacturing, or they’re going into creating a product, a B to C product. I know you guys obviously had connections out in Spain, but how do I do it if I’ve just left university and I want to go and sell jackets or caps or hats or whatever it is, what would you give to me as a piece of advice?

Felix Favor-Parker:

I would say it’s great having a business partner, because say I went by myself to Spain, I wouldn’t want to put four and a half thousand in by myself. You’d talk yourself out of it, but both me and Marcus were talking. We’re like, cool, let’s do it. And so all the good things that you have when you’re business partners is fantastic, but it’s even more important for the bad ones. Like the Gucci thing, for someone who- you can talk to people, but they’re not involved. It’s an opinion. You don’t really trust them. But when you’ve got a business partner, it affects them as much as it affects me. So I strongly recommend finding someone you work well with.

Oliver Bruce:

And how’d you go about sourcing, I suppose, the factories then, cause I’m sure that the factory that’s going to make your gilets is going to be a totally different factory to the one that makes you handbags. So how’d you go about finding them?

Felix Favor-Parker:

We work with, we’ve got a really talented, Lauren, in-house designer, but we work with quite a lot of freelance designers as well. Naturally the freelance designers say a handbag designer can recommend where she’s made bags before. So you just pick it up. And the other way of doing it is LinkedIn is so useful. It’s going to LinkedIn and just search for handbag manufacturers. If you spend an hour, you’ll find one, you’ll find some better than others, but most factories are on LinkedIn.

Oliver Bruce:

So social media is a massively important way, I suppose, to start a business from a connection point of view, you guys obviously bankrolled it to a certain extent. You put four and a half thousand into it. Did you ever at any point have to look for private investment or getting people to fund you or did you just do it based on the success and organic growth?

Felix Favor-Parker:

We’ve always done it on organic growth. What I was saying earlier, like advice to a young person would be stay at home for as long as you can. Live with your parents, don’t pay yourself too much, keep all the money you can in the cash, reinvest in product. You should be getting three times the return on each product, and then you enjoy it a bit later. But the first two, three years are so key to keep as much cash in the company as possible.

Oliver Bruce:

Well cash is king, and don’t prop up the bar, don’t spend the money on the town. Which brings me on to the fact that I’ve obviously got these Bruce beers, which I sent you a photo of earlier. So I’m going to put two of those in the post for you guys next week. So they’ll arrive when you’re back from, you’re going to Majorca you say?

New Speaker:

I am off to Majorca, yeah.

Oliver Bruce:

Well send us a selfie and I’ll have a look at those when they come in. But look Felix, thank you very much for dialling in. I can’t actually end this interview without asking you for a cap because I’ve lost my recent one. Are you able to put one in the post for me?

Felix Favor-Parker:

Yeah 100%.

Oliver Bruce:

You’re an absolute trooper. That’s superb. Well anyway, matie, thank you so much for joining us and good luck with your new gilets that are launching in November.

Felix Favor-Parker:

Puffer jackets.

Oliver Bruce:

Puffer jackets! Sorry, not gilets, puffer jackets.

Felix Favor-Parker:

I’m not sure if we’re allowed to call them puffer jackets, that might be another brand.

Oliver Bruce:

There’s a followup podcast on lawsuits with Fairfax and Favor.

Felix Favor-Parker:

My only advice for that is try to avoid them at all costs [laughs].

Oliver Bruce:

[laughs] On that note, we’ll end. Thanks so much Felix.

Felix Favor-Parker:

Thank you so much Oli.

Oliver Bruce:

To learn more about the Fairfax and Favor journey and to purchase any of the items and more discussed on this podcast, head over to fairfaxandfavor.com. And before you check out, enter the discount code exclusive to this podcast, FFPOD2020 and enjoy 10% off. This discount code will only last until the end of September. Don’t say we don’t look after our listeners. For those of you that are on Facebook, and I’m sure the majority of you are, head over to our newly launched Facebook page at Success Is In The Mind Pod where you can keep up to date with guests coming up, guests gone by, as well as photos and images from people who have enjoyed the Bruce beer, which we send out after every interview. Let us know what you think. Join me next week, where we’ll be discussing more about the failures, mistakes, passion, and persistence with another inspiring owner entrepreneur who is currently in business. Thanks once again for listening, take care. Thanks for listening. If you’ve enjoyed this programme, then please show your support by subscribing via Apple Podcasts and all other major podcast streaming services. Why not share it with at least three friends and of course, make sure you tune in next week. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the show. Contact me via Twitter @OliverBruce_biz or via LinkedIn at Oliver Bruce online. Thank you.